Friday, October 12, 2007

Second Life's "Huge Prim Problem" - What we could not say on SL's community blog

UPDATE: (Posted at 7:55pm SLT): Rather than post your opinions here, please proceed to the SL Forums where the discussion is continuing. You can do so here.

In addition, you will find valuable information here posted by Andrew Linden regarding Havok4 and object-parcel collisions.

Dear Not Possible IRL'ers:

Michael Linden has blog posted a piece called The Big Prim Problem, where he invites the community to consider whether huge prims should be done away with. As there is no more room for us to post something on Second Life's website, I would like to invite your opinion here.

We conducted a group IM in-world and here is where we left off:
[15:50] Bettina Tizzy:
[15:51] Kid Kuhn: Yeah I saw. A bit annoying, prim reduction wise
[15:52] Light Waves: hi betti!
[15:52] nand Nerd: then get your vote up there to keep em ;-)
[15:52] Kid Kuhn: Vote where?
[15:52] Sysperia Poppy: ive misssed something i think
[15:52] nand Nerd: they're asking for people to sign the blog entry
[15:52] Alec Paragon: me too, what is getting rid of and from where
[15:53] Kid Kuhn: The comments are full, 150
[15:53] Osprey Therian: I think they need to take away all the enormous ones and replace the medium big ones with scaleable versions.
[15:54] Sysperia Poppy: ty
[15:54] nand Nerd: I'll be happy to say goodbye to the ones over 256x256
[15:54] Osprey Therian: yes
[15:55] Osprey Therian: just 2 or 3 very large things like a box, a sprere, a cylinder - scaleable and useable as a normal prim - well, that would rock.
[15:55] Kid Kuhn: Well taking them away would pretty much be the same as charging cause builds will take up more prim space
[15:56] Devo Pedro: gold: Gene Replacement Says: October 12th, 2007 at 1:43 PM PDT You should remove them all because they enable terrorism.
[15:56] Osprey Therian: They haven't been around forever you know.
[15:56] Alec Paragon: lmao
[15:56] Jolly Jedburgh: perhaps they can charge for a large prim? sorting it out the linden way ;)
[15:56] Devo Pedro: for anyone who doesn't know, most of them are created by Gene
[15:56] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: Agree with Kid.... I'm not so sure about abolishing them unless they have a good alternative
[15:57] Osprey Therian: I can see enabling huge sizes for PI use.
[15:57] AM Radio: I'd be up for giving up more options on them. no hollow, phantom... etc.
[15:57] Osprey Therian: not on the mainland
[15:57] Kid Kuhn: And besides, how are you going to be able to make a huge circular platform without giant prims?
[15:57] AM Radio: and anything over 256 is a bit silly.
[15:57] Devo Pedro: the racing sim i spend most of my time in and that's becoming more and more popular each day is highly dependant on them, removing them would be catastrophic
[15:57] AM Radio: but I do love those 20x20 slabs.
[15:57] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: I don't know if I'd miss the ginormous ones... but 20x20 is a standard for me
[15:57] AM Radio: yeah
[15:57] Kid Kuhn: 20x20 and 25 rocks
[15:58] Osprey Therian: I'd say scaleble shapes up to 40m a side
[15:58] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: Scalable would be awesome, but I doubt it happeneing
[15:58] Chime Desoto: hmmm I think they are like anything else here, wonderful if used properly and as abuseable as anything else here.
[15:58] Osprey Therian: and that's it except on PI
[15:58] Jolly Jedburgh: plenty of good uses all they have to do it increase the standard prim size as it needs to be done, and no one will look for th elarge prims apart from people wanting to annoy others
[15:58] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: That's a thought
[15:59] Osprey Therian: The griefing that goes on with them is horrid.
[15:59] Jolly Jedburgh: then destroy the large prims in a big bon fire
[15:59] Bettina Tizzy: I would like to continue the discussion on these prims on the NPIRL blog, since there is no more room for us to say anything on the Linden post, and invite all of you to have your say
[15:59] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: But griefing is griefing... ban them and something else will pop up
[15:59] Jolly Jedburgh: good idea Bettina
[15:59] Bettina Tizzy: I will post something and invite your opinion
[15:59] Bjorlyn Loon: I would really like that Bettina.
[15:59] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: here, here Bettina... to the blogs :)
[15:59] Osprey Therian: No, that's not correct when it comes to sim-sized prims on the mainland.
[16:00] Devo Pedro: link please once it's started
[16:00] AM Radio: Thanks Bettina. The wheatfield would use about 148 more prims without the 20x20
[16:00] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: Allright, I'll move to the blog... but osprey I wouldn't argue in favor of prim sized, I just don't want the sortof-megas to get thrown out with it...
[16:00] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: prim sized = sim sized
[16:01] Dancoyote Antonelli: it is not the prim that causes the problems, but the wielder of the prim
[16:01] Bjorlyn Loon: lol Dan
[16:01] Dancoyote Antonelli: do not outlaw potential because some misuse it
[16:01] Dancoyote Antonelli: would you like to outlaw scripting too?
[16:01] Tezcatlipoca Bisiani: Cheers
[16:01] Osprey Therian: I advocate several shape choices up to 40m in size that are useable as normal prims.
[16:01] nand Nerd: I hear ya DC
[16:02] AM Radio: what I would want is a buffer time. if they say no more megaprims and launch a rretuyrn campaign, I'd want time to convert them to regular prims.
[16:02] AM Radio: scary
[16:02] Ravenelle Zugzwang: and those dirty strippers
[16:02] Dancoyote Antonelli: I advocate no limits on creative tools
[16:02] Kid Kuhn: Thats cool though, basically we seem to agree its ok to ban giant prims over the size of lets say 50
[16:02] AM Radio: imagine not being able to rez an item because it has a mega in it
[16:02] AM Radio shudders
[16:02] Dancoyote Antonelli: push Linden Labs
[16:02] Dancoyote Antonelli: dont cave to limitations
[16:02] Osprey Therian: Good idea, AM
[16:03] Dancoyote Antonelli: no we do not agree to ban anything
[16:03] Kid Kuhn: Ayone needs those gigant ones? If not why should they stay?
[16:03] Osprey Therian: Dan, I don't think the limits should be on PI, but there is no legitimate use on the mainland for these children of an exploit.
[16:04] AM Radio: so perhaps the limit is set as an estate option.
[16:04] Ravenelle Zugzwang: don't ban any of them on Private regions
[16:05] Dancoyote Antonelli: ...tap tap tap... is this thing on?...
[16:05] Bettina Tizzy: posted
[16:05] AM Radio: bettina, I would post this conversation as well. as longas everyone is up for it. Dan's opinion is LOUD AND CLEAR.. :)
[16:06] Bettina Tizzy: will do
[16:06] Light Waves: so what's a megaprim?
[16:06] Kid Kuhn: Yeah fine with me
[16:06] Dancoyote Antonelli: ban the griefers not the tools
[16:06] Keystone Bouchard: I'm in agreement with DC
[16:06] Devo Pedro: yep
[16:07] Osprey Therian: PI are an entirely diff case - on the mainland we need to coexist and these things are making that hard. Plus I'd rather have useable prims than the set sizes we have now.
[16:08] AM Radio: An outright ban would be terrible. Megaprims have spurred innovation and allowed people to brainstorm amazing ideas. But management toolsfor megaprims is probably prudent
[16:08] Darkle Sands: Lightwaves massive sculpture is 7 prims, what would happen to that
[16:09] Dancoyote Antonelli: we need a full range of sizes starting from 10M on up to the max Megaprim size
[16:09] Chime Desoto: we need to be careful about changing the way things are just because there are a few problems with megaprims. Every change to the nature of our collective "reality" can have unexpected and disasterous results. Make a hard and fast "ban megaprims" because some noob uses them to grief is one more step down the slippery slope that will ultimately turn this place to just another chat room
[16:10] Kid Kuhn: Darkle, sculpties wont be affected
[16:10] Osprey Therian: Oh, please.
[16:10] Avi Arrow: LL should wipe the grid sized prims from the server--any prim over 256x3 in size. keep the rest.
[16:10] Juria Yoshikawa: i say ban prims all together. let's use particles!
[16:11] Bettina Tizzy: ok, just posted this convo as well
[16:11] Bettina Tizzy: have at it peeps
[16:11] Darkle Sands: Sorry Light Waves, I thought your big sculpture that's about 200m tall was mega spheres with a sculptie texture
[16:11] Darkle Sands: my bad
[16:11] Kid Kuhn: Im on mainland and seriously I cant figure out how to make a 20x20x5 cylinder without giant prims. I need them!
[16:11] Light Waves: nah, I kid! I know full well what they are :)
[16:12] Bettina Tizzy: my own forest would cease to exist... landscaping would take such a hit
[16:12] Kid Kuhn: You are saying that they are giant prims?
[16:12] Dancoyote Antonelli: hehe
[16:12] Bettina Tizzy: Chakryn forest's trees = megas
[16:13] AM Radio: youch
[16:13] Kid Kuhn: Seems to be a shitload of megas out there then. Big problem
[16:13] Osprey Therian: So does anyone agree with me that we need useable shapes up to about 40m and PI should set their own limits?
[16:13] Chime Desoto: don't forget your sunrays, Bettina those are megas too aren't they?
[16:14] Kid Kuhn: Yeah Os, but I dont think we will be getting any new ones if they ban the old ones
[16:14] Gwen Carillon: nods in agreement with Osprey
[16:14] Devo Pedro: i'd wager the reason behind bringing this up is a technical one in conjuction with the physics upgrade and the greifing aspect is just arguement that'd support removing them but has nothing to do with their goals
[16:14] Dancoyote Antonelli: no institutionalized limitations, nay.
[16:14] Light Waves: I think prim size should be limited to parcel size. But LL say that they cause lag. I feel no lag where I am. I feel no lag in Greenies sim. What lag?
[16:14] Osprey Therian: I'm all for deciding what would be best then telling them.
[16:14] Avi Arrow: in agreement...i'd be grateful for prims that go to 12 or 16m3.
[16:15] Osprey Therian: Yes - 20m would be grand, 40m, a treat.
[16:15] Devo Pedro: they're just putting the feelers out as to how many people they'd screw over if they did it
[16:15] Kid Kuhn: Addfarms cause lag. They should get rid of those before anything else

Thank you.


Anonymous said...

Please, please dont remove the "small" giant prims. 20x20 and 25x25 are very important building blocks, especially for us mainland builders that don't have a lot of prims to spare! There are also builds that wouldnt be possible to make without them, such as a 20x20x5 cylinder platform. I'd be fine with removing the very large ones the ones over 50x50.

Kid Kuhn said...

Please, please dont remove the "small" giant prims. 20x20 and 25x25 are very important building blocks, especially for us mainland builders that don't have a lot of prims to spare! There are also builds that wouldnt be possible to make without them, such as a 20x20x5 cylinder platform. I'd be fine with removing the very large ones the ones over 50x50.

Osprey said...

We need several scaleable, useable shapes up to about 20 or 40m and PI should set their own limits.

DanCoyote said...

How much of the question here is about "out of scale" aesthetics?

Could the debate be about whether SL experiences should be limited to an "avatar" safe/scale size or if other ideas about scale and context are supported and encouraged technically and socially? (this is a good example of an innovative technology with a bad rap because it freaks people out)

Avatars are NOT people. Avatars are puppets operated by people and it is wrongheaded to apply limits based on the avatar viewpoint(which is really you viewing it on a digital display, through the SL browser).

The difference between how we perceive the world as mediated by SL and we can see objects outside of SL is the source of much confusion and poor user interface design. One does not equal the other.

We are all essentially "cameras" called agents in SL. It is retrogressive enough to import non-native and largely non-functional anthropomorphic avatar forms. It it worse to limit your view to that arbitrary and outmoded standard.


DanCoyote (is DC Spensley)

And of course this does not take into account the very real limitations of mainland sims. This is a technical limitation that I believe LL will improve as they go. Any software company that can keep delivering a build with such frequency is heroic in my book and I think it is all of our jobs to push LL on to further heights by always keeping our demands far ahead of their ability to deliver.

Anonymous said...

...they will have to pry the megaprims from my, cold dead avatar hand.....

Osprey said...

"How much of the question here is about "out of scale" aesthetics?"

That is no part of the question.

Ponk Bing said...

Sorry I missed on the chat there...

I've said it to people before, but the reason people thing it causes lag is because megas are used for things like ground and walls where the texture remains fairly constant.

in some sims, the prims they save by using them are utilised elsewhere for detail.

Essentially it means more prims with more (different) textures and people with sub-par computers having a whinge. As per usual.

I'm |-| this close to tossing SL in because of the career whiners and plagurists. If they want to get rid of lag they should outlaw campers, ad farms and fuckwits.

RightasRain Rimbaud said...

So they will remove megas from private islands because people who have small parcels and no idea how to build annoy people with small parcels? Is LL logic at it's best.

Personally I vote to ban mainland altogether...and little tiny orange prims 'cause they annoy me.

And funny that LL won't react to prim replicators because it is a tool and the crime is from the user. But a megaprim is some sort of evil thing in itself...

Edo Autopoiesis said...

Like has been said before: The problem LL has with megaprims is mostly a technical one: it complicates implementing the collision detection of the new Havok physics engine they are developing. That* is the reason why they might like to get rid of them, not* the griefing aspect.

LL has to find a balance between technical innovation and sustaining its userbase.

I think maintaining megaprims up to 50m would be nice. If technically possible up to 256m would be great.

jez, I'm slow on reacting to this thread....

Connected-Worlds said...

You will never get scalable mega-prims in Second Life. There would be no incentive to convince you to buy more land...

However, at OpenLifeGrid ( we use NORMAL prims every day that can be scaled to 100 meters.

We are also give 45,000 prims with every $59/mo region too.

I am currently building many regions up to 12-15,000 prims and by having the scaleable prims available, the results are sometimes magnificant!

Come check us out!

Tweed said...

I suppose we could ban everything and just pretend.................